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Old 04-07-2010, 10:32 AM   #91
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No, this was the spin they put on it.
It was always about oil. You're kidding yourself if you think it was anything more.
So, didn't I make it clear enough in my post that it was a spin? Sorry if I didn't, but I am fully of aware of this, thank you very much. And yeah, ShadowHunter nailed my sarcasm (Thank you). I will be more specific next time.

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Not to mention...well, i know it is controversial, but he was only an "evil dictator" based on shit we're fed about him via western mainstream media.
I mean, i saw 2 documentaries (not mainstream ones) in a period not too long before America's invasion, and found them very interesting due to seeing things in a different light. They showed interviews with Iraqi people - and for the most part, they were not bothered by having him as a leader. In fact, most of the people said they were happy with their lives, and felt good about their leader as he was a strong, powerful person.

I mean, there is no doubt he was doing and did do some FUCKED up shit, but the bottom line is - it was his country.
I want to see those documentaries, so please PM those to me ASAP.
I don't know if you knew this, but Saddam is responsible for several massacres himself. I grew up with Kurds in my area, and I've heard the stories, but I've also researched them. And, how reliable were these people calling him a "Great Leader"? I've heard people praising Ahmadinejad to such high extent it made me sick to my stomach, because of the crimes against humanity that piece of shit is responsible for.

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the bottom line is - it was his country.
I think many other countries disagreed with the way George Bush was running "his own" right? I mean, America is a consumerist, corporate controlled, energy consuming, deeply flawed nation. Imagine if other world forces joined together and said "America is trying to control the world, they provide less than 5% of the world's population yet use more energy annually than any other country in vast proportions, provide the second highest amount of CO2 emissions annually, create fast food companies that continue to spread across the globe that have had a huge impact on obesity and bad health, encourages their residents to obsess over pointless trivialities of it's celebrities along with many other horrid things - lets go there and overthrow their government, and if we kill a few hundred thousand civilians in the process or even over 1,000,000 that's just too bad cos we are acting for the greater good"....
Well, Cambodia was under Pol Pot, and it was his country, as well. Bottom line is that we are a world, and it is up to all of us to help each other. I've tried to show solidarity to the Iranian people during their demonstrations, although I'm actually living in Sweden. So yeah, I am not an American, to start with.

And besides, just because USA is fucked, doesn't mean there aren't cruel, inhumane, fascist leaders in Saudi Arabia, Iran and China, etc. Yes, US has committed terrible, unforgettable acts, but don't forget China and Russia. Look into China, and how much shit they are letting out in their industrial areas.

Again, I know America wanted to get rid of Saddam so they could hold power, and not to liberate shit. But, since you used the bottom line as a main argument, I figured I'd challenge you on it.
So, I am not in any way defending USA, if you haven't understood that yet.

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Bottom line is, America doesn't own the world. Noone does. We're all here together, and we're doing a pretty shitty job of existing cohesively right about now.
People can say "people have never got along man, look at the *insert olden time group of people who fought someone else here* back in the *insert relevant time period*" etc etc, but the bottom line is things are not like they used to be. The world is thinking more similarily now, people from all over the world now live togethor, we use the same types of utensils day to day, live similar lives, etc to so many others on the planet. And if we don't, we can find about the way they live so easily, etc.
We are at a point where we should know better. We are aware of our own morals, and yet we allow them to be smothered with greed and apathy whenever it seems like a better solution.

I just think we can do it better. We mightn't be able to fix every problem, but i think we can make things a LOT better. Seriously. It just seems like a huge task. But, there's plenty of us, and some arguably smart motherfuckers amongst us. And to let these atrocities continue without proper acknowledgement and attempts to counteract imo is plain wrong.
Are you referring to my comment about Vietnam? Because, I hope I made it clear enough that I will not stand indifferent to these matters, no matter what conflict, and where this conflict takes place. China, Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, America, the Israel/Palestine conflict, what have you.
America is still, despite slowly falling apart, one of the main superpowers, and how do you think they maintain that position?

All superpowers are so because they do dirt, and play unfair. They cheat, they scheme and murder, and invade countries and make deals with dictators, etc. That's how it works.

When America flunks, China and Russia will be up next for the position, and then you'll see depletion of natural resources, my friend.
Again, I DO NOT defend America, I just want to make clear that all these superpowers are equally shit. Just wait until China starts dipping around.
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Old 04-07-2010, 12:56 PM   #92
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you are all nazis. gonna read laaaater.
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:44 PM   #93
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so apparently wikileaks has left out a lot in that video. there are countless other sources for this as well.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...hooting-video/

"The problem, according to many who have viewed the video, is that WikiLeaks appears to have done selective editing that tells only half the story. For instance, the Web site takes special care to slow down the video and identify the two photographers and the cameras they are carrying.

However, the Web site does not slow down the video to show that at least one man in that group was carrying a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, a clearly visible weapon that runs nearly two-thirds the length of his body.

WikiLeaks also does not point out that at least one man was carrying an AK-47 assault rifle. He is seen swinging the weapon below his waist while standing next to the man holding the RPG."


"Julian Assange, a WikiLeaks editor, acknowledged to Fox News in an interview Tuesday evening that "it's likely some of the individuals seen in the video were carrying weapons."

Assange said his suspicions about the weapons were so strong that a draft version of the video they produced made specific reference to the AK-47s and RPGs. Ultimately, Assange said, WikiLeaks became "unsure" about the weapons. He claimed the RPG could have been a camera tripod, so editors decided not to point it out."

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Old 04-07-2010, 10:48 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by LesserAnimal View Post
In other words, if you're being occupied, do absolutely nothing, ever, or we'll kill you, kill anyone who tries to save you
Isn't this seriously the policy that has been taken up for almost every military conflict excluding the period where Civil War/WWI-eque tactics (dress in different colors stand in a line, don't shoot generals, meet me at the flagpole at 3:30) were in play? Even then I have no doubt rape and brutality were common enough.

I guess i'm just surprised to see all this outrage about this video. It's like if I brought you (not you John but the internet as a whole it seems) a birthday cake on your birthday and and you were shocked to discover it had icing. This is war. People are slaughter with little discrimination. It's inherent.
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Old 04-07-2010, 11:12 PM   #95
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But it isn't fuckin' war. It is a fuckin' invasion fueled by a desire for wealth and control. Yes, most wars start the same way. But to me, the invading nations in the past are always the ones viewed as the bad guys...so...yeah...

And as i said before, things are different now. War isn't just war. The technology available and the ability for calculation is light years beyond anything previously available (obviously). So, it should mean a lot LESS civilian casualties imo.

Fuck justifying the death of 100s of 1000s (or more) of innocent people. Mother nature is the only one who has the right to do that.
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Old 04-08-2010, 12:22 AM   #96
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Did anyone watch the longer version?

The second attack is every bit disturbing to me as the first.
The scene looks a little more ominous as 2 of the targets are certainly carrying machine guns, it's pretty obvious, but then there's people walking into the same building as them who are clearly not carrying either.

They walk very casually, like they are doing nothing out of the ordinary. What training do these pilots have that says that these people deserve to be fed Hellfire missiles from 2 miles away and blown to pieces?

What's worse is when the first one is released, an innocent man is cruising by the entrance and gets fucking annihilated. Two others after the smoke clears go and see what's happening and they also get banished for no reason. Then a third is released for good measure.

The other strange thing here is one of the pilots (the young nervous sounding guy) admits to having a brain-fart and cannot find his release catch for the hellfire function. That's disturbing itself.
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Old 04-08-2010, 12:32 AM   #97
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But it isn't fuckin' war. It is a fuckin' invasion fueled by a desire for wealth and control. Yes, most wars start the same way. But to me, the invading nations in the past are always the ones viewed as the bad guys...so...yeah...
War is about gaining a higher degree of relative dominance. Cutting clear lines between good and bad is a function of how far out of the context the conflict is presented and to what degree propaganda works. Surely you have in mind Hitler as your archetypal bad guy but it wasn't even clear cut than. Take into account that Germany's entire industrial infastructure was raped, they were forced to take on every other countries war debt, and prohibited from maintaining an army. I'm not saying Nazi Germany was some fantastic affair but burn money for warmth and eat leather shoes for food and it starts to shatter your simplified good guy/bad guy view of history.

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And as i said before, things are different now. War isn't just war. The technology available and the ability for calculation is light years beyond anything previously available (obviously). So, it should mean a lot LESS civilian casualties imo.
Check statistics and get a soldier/civilian proportion and compare it to another conflict. I bet it is a lot less. For whatever it's worth total global civilian casualties for WWII clock in at just under 50 million
and military casualties at 24 million.

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Fuck justifying the death of 100s of 1000s (or more) of innocent people. Mother nature is the only one who has the right to do that.
I never justified anything. I'm just pointing out that this type of engagement is par for the course and relative to history,they might as well thrown lollipops at them.
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Old 04-08-2010, 12:51 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by ChAAPY View Post
so apparently wikileaks has left out a lot in that video. there are countless other sources for this as well.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...hooting-video/

"The problem, according to many who have viewed the video, is that WikiLeaks appears to have done selective editing that tells only half the story. For instance, the Web site takes special care to slow down the video and identify the two photographers and the cameras they are carrying.

However, the Web site does not slow down the video to show that at least one man in that group was carrying a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, a clearly visible weapon that runs nearly two-thirds the length of his body.

WikiLeaks also does not point out that at least one man was carrying an AK-47 assault rifle. He is seen swinging the weapon below his waist while standing next to the man holding the RPG."


"Julian Assange, a WikiLeaks editor, acknowledged to Fox News in an interview Tuesday evening that "it's likely some of the individuals seen in the video were carrying weapons."

Assange said his suspicions about the weapons were so strong that a draft version of the video they produced made specific reference to the AK-47s and RPGs. Ultimately, Assange said, WikiLeaks became "unsure" about the weapons. He claimed the RPG could have been a camera tripod, so editors decided not to point it out."
LOL this is great. what a bunch of biased pieces of shit trying to start even more controversy against hard working soldiers!! its so awesome how the media puts down troops any way they can! even if we werent supposed to be there in the first place, we cant change the fact that there are thousands of troops putting their life on the line to serve this country. dont support the war, at least support the troops. most of them arent serial murderers in uniform lolol.........
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Old 04-08-2010, 05:32 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by ChAAPY View Post
so apparently wikileaks has left out a lot in that video. there are countless other sources for this as well.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...hooting-video/

"The problem, according to many who have viewed the video, is that WikiLeaks appears to have done selective editing that tells only half the story. For instance, the Web site takes special care to slow down the video and identify the two photographers and the cameras they are carrying.

However, the Web site does not slow down the video to show that at least one man in that group was carrying a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, a clearly visible weapon that runs nearly two-thirds the length of his body.

WikiLeaks also does not point out that at least one man was carrying an AK-47 assault rifle. He is seen swinging the weapon below his waist while standing next to the man holding the RPG."


"Julian Assange, a WikiLeaks editor, acknowledged to Fox News in an interview Tuesday evening that "it's likely some of the individuals seen in the video were carrying weapons."

Assange said his suspicions about the weapons were so strong that a draft version of the video they produced made specific reference to the AK-47s and RPGs. Ultimately, Assange said, WikiLeaks became "unsure" about the weapons. He claimed the RPG could have been a camera tripod, so editors decided not to point it out."
Really? The whole 40 minute clip doesn't seem to have any cuts or edits in there.

So if I'm getting this right, people shocked that the 3 minute long edit of the whole thing, well, edited? Shocking.
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:13 AM   #100
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Chalky
I seriously can't believe the Iraqi "situation" doesn't get more press. How people don't seem concerned with over 1,000,000 CIVILIAN deaths is beyond me.
It is seriously fucking INSANE.
Nothing more than a modern time genocide fueled by corporate greed and propaganda...
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Old 04-08-2010, 08:31 PM   #101
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LOL this is great. what a bunch of biased pieces of shit trying to start even more controversy against hard working soldiers!! its so awesome how the media puts down troops any way they can! even if we werent supposed to be there in the first place, we cant change the fact that there are thousands of troops putting their life on the line to serve this country. dont support the war, at least support the troops. most of them arent serial murderers in uniform lolol.........
I want to make clear a few things I wrote in the past. What I brought up in my absolute first post of this thread, was just to focus on the unstable, section - 8 soldiers in combat, and the sport killers , and why things such as this occur.

I hope I made clear of the paranoia, and stress factors to why this occurs. Mixed with the constant fueled anger of being attacked from unknown directions, and whatnot. It's mind-breaking work. I also agree that it's not entirely the troopers fault; I always look to the people in charge, and the G-men above those in charge.

There are repugnant characters, for sure. But, there are really professional, skilled and inspiring people in Americas military, as well. I won't go into that right now, but I want to make myself understood, and complexities of this conflict and the people involved.

I also agree that media shits all over the troops when they can. That is unfair, and totally biased. Some of these soldiers are trying their best, but in war or conflicts, mistakes take place all the time.
Again, I am not talking about this particular event, but an soldiers everyday in general.
I also believe in having a well equipped military, and offensive strikes can sometimes be essential for a greater peace; but, NOT IN IRAQ.

If we're talking offense, I think the Balkans is the best example that needed it. The UN stood passively, while Serbian fascist factions tied people up, drenched them in fuel and lit them on fire. Again, I am totally against NATOs ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Kosovo, or the aggressive strikes on Serbia. But, the UN needed to take a harder grip on the fascist Serbian factions; not the innocent Serbs who got slaughtered. But then again, the Balkan war was complex as hell, too.

My point about Pol Pot was that, Saddam ordered a massacre of hundred of thousands of Kurds, and he committed heinous crimes. Pol Pot had Cambodia for a while, and it was his country. So, Pol Pot massacred all those people, and nobody even knew about it to stop it, until the Vietnam communists took charge. Countries are just abstract ideas, and what we're really talking about is land. I'm not saying it's right to invade a country aggressively, and start bombing people to shreds like the US did in 2003, but, that borders will always stretch and shrink. I also am totally against the invasion of Iraq.

Every situation needs to be analyzed, and studied. Each piece must be separated, before it can be glued together with all the others for a conclusion.

I usually don't like discussing topics like these on a message board, because to me, issues are always so complex. And, for me to really made myself understood, I need to explain every little detail, to prove my point.
In my opinion, I think Chalky is seeing things a bit too simplistic. Again, not that I do not agree with his points about Americas government lust for power, but with how it's all about the oil; although I surely believe the oil is a huge part of it.

First of all. you do know that America is buying oil from Saudi Arabia, which is pretty bad, as well. But, it's no invasion, is it. Saudi Arabia, is a fascist state, where womens rights, and other human rights are constantly stepped on. If it was only about the oil, there are many ways to go about it. But, business is business; it's dirty. I don't see other Western countries taking their moral responsibility, either, and there is hypocrisy everywhere.
So, it's really up to us consumers to take our responsibility and find out about the products we are buying.

It's like Chiquita bananas: the company admitted to having supported the paramilitary in Colombia, so I became aware to stay away from their products, although I've never been buying their products, I still knew. However, I still have a lot of shit made in China, and you can see for yourself how fucked some of their industrial areas are: http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/...tion-in-china/

But, I'm trying to take as much responsibility as I can.

America isn't really an empire on the rise, and is steady declining. The economy has sunk so hard since the 1960s industrial collapse, and with the debts and budget undercuts America is suffering from today, it probably won't get better. So, the only power hungry scumbags, are the 1%. I'm not suggesting a consumer society is healthy, but Western societies in general are crazy about consuming, and I think it's unfair to just point fingers towards America as being this evil empire.

This post has no point, really. Maybe, except that I believe the world is a complex sphere.

Last edited by Original; 04-08-2010 at 08:38 PM..
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Old 04-08-2010, 09:56 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by nigelwho View Post
War is about gaining a higher degree of relative dominance. Cutting clear lines between good and bad is a function of how far out of the context the conflict is presented and to what degree propaganda works. Surely you have in mind Hitler as your archetypal bad guy but it wasn't even clear cut than. Take into account that Germany's entire industrial infastructure was raped, they were forced to take on every other countries war debt, and prohibited from maintaining an army. I'm not saying Nazi Germany was some fantastic affair but burn money for warmth and eat leather shoes for food and it starts to shatter your simplified good guy/bad guy view of history.



Check statistics and get a soldier/civilian proportion and compare it to another conflict. I bet it is a lot less. For whatever it's worth total global civilian casualties for WWII clock in at just under 50 million
and military casualties at 24 million.



I never justified anything. I'm just pointing out that this type of engagement is par for the course and relative to history,they might as well thrown lollipops at them.
Despite wanting to respond to your points, it is the overall theme (a common one too i must say) that bothers me. It is the "it's just the way things are" argument that really grates at me. Humans are so willing to fall back on age old adages to justify its pathetic forays into self destructive realms. We like to be all high and mighty, lay claim to ownership of this planet, and sit on the thrown as rulers of it (in our minds mostly), but when it comes to our misgivings we pull out anything we can to avoid the truths that would make us take a good hard look at ourself and probably hate elements of what we are we would be FORCED to change, and then of course the establishment comes crumbling blah blah

We are not beyond changing, but using fallbacks for every fuck up is so irritating. We need to realise things are fucked, accept shit is our fault directly or by default, and work harder to fix it. Instead of saying "that's war man, people die", you know?

Is what i am saying making any sense? Do you at least see what i am saying?
Or trying to...
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:29 PM   #103
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Despite wanting to respond to your points, it is the overall theme (a common one too i must say) that bothers me. It is the "it's just the way things are" argument that really grates at me. Humans are so willing to fall back on age old adages to justify its pathetic forays into self destructive realms. We like to be all high and mighty, lay claim to ownership of this planet, and sit on the thrown as rulers of it (in our minds mostly), but when it comes to our misgivings we pull out anything we can to avoid the truths that would make us take a good hard look at ourself and probably hate elements of what we are we would be FORCED to change, and then of course the establishment comes crumbling blah blah

We are not beyond changing, but using fallbacks for every fuck up is so irritating. We need to realise things are fucked, accept shit is our fault directly or by default, and work harder to fix it. Instead of saying "that's war man, people die", you know?

Is what i am saying making any sense? Do you at least see what i am saying?
Or trying to...
My only point is that this video didn't surprise or shock me. Rather, I was surprised about the huge amount of shock and awe (lol) i've seen on various internet communities in response to the video. That's my only point. This shouldn't surprise anyone because these type of situations are married to the current system. I'm not even commenting on if that is good or bad, fair or unfair.
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Old 04-09-2010, 03:00 PM   #104
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People who say "those poor troops, it wasn't their idea to invade Iraq!" should consider whether people have the choice about whether to become soldiers or not.

Here's more similar stuff in Afghanistan: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl...tan/index.html
For years, soldiers have been committing bombing massacres at weddings in Afghanistan. But hey, why do those stupid Afghans have to go getting married? Darwin Awards stuff, right?!
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Old 04-09-2010, 03:38 PM   #105
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Guess that means all those McDonalds employees work there because they want to kill people with cholesterol. And not because, you know, they need the money?
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Old 04-09-2010, 03:45 PM   #106
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Takes much more work to get into the military than McD.
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Old 04-09-2010, 04:22 PM   #107
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If we're talking America, then it's pretty easy to get into the military.
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Old 04-10-2010, 05:58 PM   #108
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Guess that means all those McDonalds employees work there because they want to kill people with cholesterol. And not because, you know, they need the money?
In other words, it's okay to kill innocent people for money if... you know ... you really need money.

AFAIK everything you've posted in this thread has been a rationalization.

At any point in the chain of events (from signing the dotted line to pulling the trigger) an individual has the choice to stop. The worst that can happen is jail time for abandoning service.

But, true to form, you're ready to rationalize, and to mock and make fun of the person you think you're debating. You're a teenage narcissist trapped in an adult's body.

: (

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Old 04-10-2010, 06:43 PM   #109
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In other words, it's okay to kill innocent people for money if... you know ... you really need money.
It's okay to do anything because... You know... Anything else.

Yeah, generalize harder Greg.

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AFAIK everything you've posted in this thread has been a rationalization.

At any point in the chain of events (from signing the dotted line to pulling the trigger) an individual has the choice to stop. The worst that can happen is jail time for abandoning service.
I'm pretty sure that if abandoning service meant you'd be getting an RPG to the face, you'd be squeezing that trigger until the bullet belt ran out. So would I.

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But, true to form, you're ready to rationalize, and to mock and make fun of the person you think you're debating. You're a teenage narcissist trapped in an adult's body.

: (
But you, somehow, aren't rationalizing? Please stop being a silly goose Gregory, of course you are! I know it doesn't seem like it from your point of view, because to you what you're saying seems like the most obvious explanation to this whole mess but you are. All we're going by is a video from the helicopter, we know not what the pilot and gunner saw on their screens (they have those in color and high-res, not b&w youtube quality), I interpret it one way, you, the other. We can go back and forth, but really, I don't care. So knock yourself out silly with whatever theories you're down with. I said what I think and your incessant butthurtness ain't gonna change my mind, a sensible argument might, but I've yet to see one here that isn't "HERP DERP TEH AMERIKKAN ARMIES KILLAN CIVILLANZ TINFOILZ HATZ ON WAKENESS!". So I'm just gonna go chug to some slams and be a narcissist bro. Peace up, A-Town.
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Old 04-10-2010, 06:59 PM   #110
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One of your main arguments, if I recall, was that people walking about in places like that are asking for trouble. But it you're LIVING IN A WAR ZONE, that point is pretty void. And the talk of "bringing kids to battle" is bullshit, because that van was trying to save a wounded man. I don't see why you're talking about theories, because that's not what's being discussed here. The point is that it's unacceptable, and what makes it worse is that this is not an anomaly, it's a standard occurrence (as many soldiers' accounts confirm). Far from making it unworthy of discussion, that's what makes it an issue in the first place: the entire project of an idiotic and wanton war. And in Afghanistan, you get the top commander admitting that none of the "amazing number of people" they've shot has ever turned out to have posed a threat, and the media hardly comment. I see a pattern here, don't you?
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Old 04-10-2010, 07:03 PM   #111
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Those reporters sure were living in the warz zone, eys they were. They totally didn't come there to take photos, no sir.

And also war is not the answer, peace and love, smoke weed every day. You know what I'm talking about Wielz you old hippie you!

Also this:

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Old 04-10-2010, 09:24 PM   #112
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Those reporters sure were living in the warz zone, eys they were. They totally didn't come there to take photos, no sir.
Because the only people that count are journalists, right? It's not as if we would also object to civilians being killed this way. (Not everyone is there to take pictures, yeah? People live in Iraq? What are they like?)

One of the things narcissists tend to do is be oblivious to context.

An example is the entire "The soldiers have to choose between life or death - the enemy doesn't wear a uniform" rationalization for murder. Part of the truth, that is, the fact that when one person is in a position which makes it difficult for him to distinguish between people who are not about to kill him and people who are about to kill him and so must make regrettable decisions, is presented as if it does not take place in a larger context. Said context is what Sz either does not consider (narcissism) or ignores in an effort to maintain a pre-determined rationale of his. (dishonesty)

And that context is the profound fact that those soldiers don't live in Iraq. They live in the United States. They flew thousands of miles in planes, carrying guns, to where someone else lives. They drop bombs, they conduct raids, they fly choppers, they build bases, and while doing those things, they make regrettable decisions about who, in Iraq, lives and dies. They're tough decisions to make because it's hard to tell who wants to kill you. But they do all of these things as violent, invading occupiers from across the world. Were they not violent, invading occupiers, they would not be trying to decide who wants to kill them in the first place. They'd be at home doing something else. All of these "Can't blame 'em for defending themselves" events happen in this context. It isn't really defensive.

And so it is narcissistic in the extreme to lay the fault of the soldier's regrettable decisions on the victims. It is repugnant to claim that the Iraqis are liable to be slaughtered by distant foreigners for looking suspicious in their streets and homes, and that mistakes made by those invading foreigners are somehow their responsibility.

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Old 04-11-2010, 06:04 AM   #113
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Good job putting words in my mouth. A despicable man you are Greg. We're talking about this specific occurrence, not every single time (Iraqi) civilians and other non-combatants in Iraq were shot at, accidentally or not. These weren't Iraqis, they had as much business there as the soldiers themselves. There was a firefight taking okace right around the goddamn corner and an armed helicopter hovering overhead. They went to to exact spot were moments before men dressed in civilian clothing shot up a convoy. Please stop trying to spin this like I'm the bad guy, just explain what the fuck were they thinking?
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Old 04-11-2010, 09:59 AM   #114
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These weren't Iraqis, they had as much business there as the soldiers themselves.
Not Iraqis? Bullshit.

Namir Noor-Eldeen (September 1, 1984 – July 12, 2007) was an Iraqi freelance photojournalist
Saeed Chmagh (January 1, 1967 – July 12, 2007) was an Iraqi employed by Reuters news agency as a driver and camera assistant.

What business they had there? Maybe, like, documenting what was being done to their country?
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Old 04-11-2010, 11:31 AM   #115
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Employed by Reuters. Yeah, they totally lived right on that street corner there. Why did they think not even mentioning they'd be there to the US forces was a good idea? Did they asuume their mission of informing the people made them impervious to bullets or something? Now don't get me wrong, in a perfect world there'd be no firefights in the streets of Iraq, but goddamn, if one is happening nearby, don't go there. And if you are and it just so happens that one of the sides is not hostile towards you, make your presence known to them beforehand.

If I went into a combat zone and got shot by accident, despite knowing the risk of that happening before I went in, is it really not my fault?
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Old 04-11-2010, 11:34 AM   #116
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Not Iraqis? Bullshit.

Namir Noor-Eldeen (September 1, 1984 – July 12, 2007) was an Iraqi freelance photojournalist
Saeed Chmagh (January 1, 1967 – July 12, 2007) was an Iraqi employed by Reuters news agency as a driver and camera assistant.

What business they had there? Maybe, like, documenting what was being done to their country?

He doesn't take the time to so much as check whether or not the journalists were Iraqis and blames them for being killed in their own streets by invaders from across the world.

That's the thing about narcissism - once you're there, it's hard to escape precisely because your perspective is limited. It's like the "We don't know what we don't know" knowledge problem - he really is oblivious to the perspectives of anyone other than those whose "team" he have chosen to side with.

My explanation of the event's context from earlier stands.
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Old 04-11-2010, 11:43 AM   #117
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Employed by Reuters. Yeah, they totally lived right on that street corner there.
Here you have it - the crown jewel of this child's e-defense of the imperialist's right to blame anyone he kills for their own deaths.

It's not the military's fault, you see - those journalists shouldn't have been documenting what was going on anywhere outside of their own street corner. Never mind the fact that other people do live on that street corner. I wonder if some of the unarmed men in that group did? Ah - fuck it, really. No matter how many or few streets over they may have lived, its their responsibility not to walk into the wrong areas. If they walk somewhere the foreign invaders don't want them to, they are responsible for their own slaughter.
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Old 04-11-2010, 12:02 PM   #118
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Good job putting words in my mouth. A despicable man you are Greg.
Actually what I've done is point out the principles behind your rationalization. If you don't like the ethical conclusions your rationalizations lead to, you should question them.

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We're talking about this specific occurrence, not every single time (Iraqi) civilians and other non-combatants in Iraq were shot at, accidentally or not.
It didn't happen in a vacuum. Events occur within larger contexts. We ARE in fact talking about the ethics of foreign invaders behavior regarding those they are militantly occupying. The context itself puts soldiers at risk, and you are using that (and actually less, to tell you the truth) to justify their slaughter of innocent people who they believe look suspicious, or who walked down the wrong street.

Maybe you've misunderstood my problem with what happened. I know that there were weapons there and I know that the soldiers are scared. They have deliberately placed themselves into the position of a marauding, invading foreign occupier. This is extremely important when we consider the ethics of what they do there, and it can't be wished away by the fantasies of an e-narcissist. In this instance, and I'm sure countless other similar ones, the bar for whether or not it was legitimate to pull the trigger and mow people down from a distance was set incredibly low. We know for a fact that at least one of the people responsible for these particular killings just wanted to kill them. Hence he begged the injured journalist to pick up a weapon while he crawled on the ground so that he could rip his body up with more of that machine gun fire. Hence he begged for permission to light up the van full of unarmed people after the "combatants" were already lying in a pile of corpses like thirty yards away.

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These weren't Iraqis, they had as much business there as the soldiers themselves.
Ignoring for a moment the hilarious mistake you made here, supposing they weren't Iraqis (they were) it is an example of precisely the same narcissism I've been accusing you of to claim that journalists documenting brutality have "as much business" as those who are explicitly dealing out the brutality. This is so self-evident I hardly know how to explain it to you. Try pretending that those not on your team are real people, too. Should help.

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There was a firefight taking okace right around the goddamn corner and an armed helicopter hovering overhead. They went to to exact spot were moments before men dressed in civilian clothing shot up a convoy.
In other words, all invading occupiers from across the world need to justly slaughter you is that you're A. in the same area as bad guys and B. are dressed in similar clothes as bad guys.

Amazing.

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Please stop trying to spin this like I'm the bad guy
lol

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Old 04-11-2010, 12:09 PM   #119
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So if a guy points the barrel of a Colt at his head whilst its being cleaned and blows his head wide open... It's not his fault but John Browning's? They knew the risks involved, they knew what was going on nearby, stop making them martyrs fighting for justice and the right to know the truth. Do keep in mind I never said the soldiers present weren't also at fault, but from the way your posts are going, it seems you think I did. LOL.

On top of that you're acting as if I think what's going on in Iraq is right, throwing assumptions and implications left and right. I'm not even going to comment on that because frankly, what is there to say? You're slowly becoming what people make fun of in the tags, Greg Puciato, headless avenger of injustice.

Just so we're clear, I still think those reporters were grade-A morons. Who knows what you might think I meant through this post otherwise...

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Old 04-11-2010, 12:24 PM   #120
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So if a guy points the barrel of a Colt at his head whilst its being cleaned and blows his head wide open... It's not his fault but John Browning's?
That's an outright awful analogy. You'll have to defend it. You probably won't.

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On top of that you're acting as if I think what's going on in Iraq is right, throwing assumptions and implications left and right.
That you do or do not support the Iraq invasion/occupation (I've assumed you do not since the beginning) is irrelevant to my comments. I have tried to explain that while considering the ethics of this event, we have to consider its context. That you think the context is unjust but rationalize the event means there is a disconnect between the two on your end.

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I'm not even going to comment on that because frankly, what is there to say?
You could say "copping out is the easiest way to escape responsibility for one's position".

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You're slowly becoming what people make fun of in the tags, Greg Puciato, headless avenger of injustice.
One of the strategies middle and high-school aged children employ when someone criticizes their behavior is mockery.
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