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Old 01-02-2009, 11:56 PM   #1
LesserAnimal
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Change from Obama

Chevron in the Whitehouse
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:00 AM   #2
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What a Coma-esque topic.

Frankly, so far the only thing about Obama's cabinet selections that make me optimistic at all is that he's not an intellectual lightweight a-la Carter or Bush 43, and actually has the mental wherewithal to resist attempts by people like Jones and Clinton to hijack his foreign policy.

But it's all speculative until he actually takes office.
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:07 AM   #3
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Frankly, so far the only thing about Obama's cabinet selections that make me optimistic at all is that he's not an intellectual lightweight a-la Carter or Bush 43, and actually has the mental wherewithal to resist attempts by people like Jones and Clinton to hijack his foreign policy.




Anyway, your statement does presuppose that he'll be against their wishes in the first place.

As you said, it's all speculative right now. The point of my post is that the pattern of industry-specific elites running the executive branch isn't stopping.

Last edited by LesserAnimal; 01-03-2009 at 12:10 AM..
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:09 AM   #4
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I guess this means the world is ending.
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:58 AM   #5
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I have a bong named Barack Obonga. Time to make some changes.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:21 AM   #6
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I have a bong named Barack Obonga. Time to make some changes.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:23 AM   #7
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Now that's what I'm talking about.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:23 AM   #8
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The point of my post is that the pattern of industry-specific elites running the executive branch isn't stopping.
It wouldn't stop regardless of who was elected.

Well... except maybe Kucinich, because he'd probably fill his cabinet with magical woodland critters.
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:36 PM   #9
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It wouldn't stop regardless of who was elected.
Exactly!

Pointing this out usually gets you non-negotiable entrance into the tinfoil hat brigade, though.
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:51 PM   #10
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Ron Paul 2012.
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:53 PM   #11
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Well... except maybe Kucinich, because he'd probably fill his cabinet with magical woodland critters.
At least he voted against the bailouts. That alone makes him a winner over Obama. I tend to like politicians that vote the way the american public want them to vote, not the way the establishment wants them to vote.
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:13 PM   #12
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Ron Paul 2012.



seriously I you!!!!!!
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:24 PM   #13
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Ron Paul 2012.
Reverting back to a gold standard is a terrible, terrible idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_scrip

But, at least he is the most informed member of congress.
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:42 PM   #14
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Reverting back to a gold standard is a terrible, terrible idea.
Explain why please.
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:47 PM   #15
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Reverting back to a gold standard is a terrible, terrible idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_scrip
My head almost explodes every time I see an armchair economist arbitrarily destroy an entire school of thought in one sentence. I had to resist starting a debate because I don't know enough theory yet.

Suffice to say that fiat money and redonkulous fractional reserve ratios in banking is the single greatest tool the elite class uses to exploit the rest of the country, and to pay for geopolitical wars we otherwise couldn't have gotten ourselves into. (ww1 for example)


Cheers! : )
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:52 PM   #16
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Explain why please.
Gold is a commodity that is traded freely, and having something that can be owned by anyone as a basis for a currency isn't any better than a private institution controlling its issuance.
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:56 PM   #17
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Gold is a commodity that is traded freely, and having something that can be owned by anyone as a basis for a currency isn't any better than a private institution controlling its issuance.
That makes no sense to me.

Gold/Silver become the most widely accepted medium of exchange by the populace over time, and thus de facto currency.

What's wrong with something which can be owned by anyone being the basis for a currency?

Last edited by LesserAnimal; 01-03-2009 at 02:08 PM..
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:59 PM   #18
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Gold is a commodity that is traded freely, and having something that can be owned by anyone as a basis for a currency isn't any better than a private institution controlling its issuance.
Thanks for the vague response that actually explains nothing.

Anyways, having a private institution controlling the supply and value of our money is a horrible idea. And then for them to make interest off us is just the final slap in the face.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:07 PM   #19
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The Fed pays all interest back to the Treasury I believe. It definitely gets paid back though. That's a myth.

You can't trust everyone on the Fed. I just stick with Rothbard. Ed Griffin makes me nervous.

The real problem with the Fed is that it's flatly a banking cartel, written for and by bankers, and enforced by the government. A statist wet dream.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:20 PM   #20
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Hmm, well I just think that the possibility of any large entity, or even an individual, owning the majority of what the currency is based on is not good for the economy, or fair for anyone.

Also, inflation and deflation would be controlled by the amount of gold in existence. Inflation/deflation is something that should be managed intelligently, so economic turmoil could be avoided.

But, it is very fair in calling me an armchair economist, as I don't fully understand how a gold standard would operate within the brances of the government. So, please inform me.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:22 PM   #21
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I can't handle all the change, it's too much.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090103/ap_on_bi_ge/obama

too much!
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:22 PM   #22
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The Fed pays all interest back to the Treasury I believe. It definitely gets paid back though. That's a myth.
I've read that before. What exactly is the point of the interest if it's just going back to the Treasury in the end? Isn't this just adding unnecessary complication to the process? This seems very suspicious to me.

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Old 01-03-2009, 02:28 PM   #23
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Hmm, well I just think that the possibility of any large entity, or even an individual, owning the majority of what the currency is based on is not good for the economy, or fair for anyone.

Also, inflation and deflation would be controlled by the amount of gold in existence. Inflation/deflation is something that should be managed intelligently, so economic turmoil could be avoided.

But, it is very fair in calling me an armchair economist, as I don't fully understand how a gold standard would operate within the brances of the government. So, please inform me.
The problem is that men manipulating markets does not work because economics is not simply just formulas. There are far far far far to many factors at work, many of which can not be quantitated or even realized for a policy to be conceived, implemented and expected to work. Attempting to manage an economy is how economic turmoil occurs. It's through artificial pricing that bubbles form and its when bubbles burst that turmoil happens.

EDIT: I'm not convinced the gold standard is the way to go but i found this article (http://mises.org/rothbard/genuine.asp) quite good.

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Old 01-03-2009, 02:33 PM   #24
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Yeah, right. Johnny, INCINERATE, want to contribute? I'm still in the process of learning about a standardized monetary system, and I've realized that my opinion on the matter wasn't very informed. As you guys know, I'm opposed to the monetary system entirely (let's not get into that), and my concerns stem from the usurption of wealth and the distribution of power through currency, which I thought would remain a problem even with a standard basis.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:36 PM   #25
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Attempting to manage an economy is how economic turmoil occurs. It's through artificial pricing that bubbles form and its when bubbles burst that turmoil happens.
Exactly.

I like to posit two things:

1. The above statement concerning econ theory. (Supposing those managing the economy were SAINTS and did everything "right", COULD it even be done?)

2. Supposing the answer to the above question is yes, what actually HAS and IS happening within these circumstances? Regulation and the Fed are used by the "ruling class" to bury their competition, and to exploit the public at large via government enforcement.

I personally believe the answer to question one is a firm "No" in the first place, but assuming Capitalists won't be able to convince everyone of this, I think it's important to point out what has actually happened when we allow others to interfere with the normal functioning. (Massive bubbles/turmoil, massive inflation, the spoiling of competition, mass debt slavery etc)

Quote:
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EDIT: I'm not convinced the gold standard is the way to go but i found this article (http://mises.org/rothbard/genuine.asp) quite good.
Rothbard was the man. He has done some GREAT work on the history/formation of the Fed as a cartel.

If those interested in the Fed have the time http://mises.org/multimedia/mp3/Fed1...2_Rothbard.mp3

He starts off pretty weakly, but if you're careful his reasoning is valid. He has written on "good" and "bad" conspiracy theorists http://mises.org/story/2809

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Old 01-03-2009, 02:42 PM   #26
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Yeah, right. Johnny, INCINERATE, want to contribute? I'm still in the process of learning about a standardized monetary system, and I've realized that my opinion on the matter wasn't very informed. As you guys know, I'm opposed to the monetary system entirely (let's not get into that), and my concerns stem from the usurption of wealth and the distribution of power through currency, which I thought would remain a problem even with a standard basis.
Mine isn't either. That's why I hesitated to engage in a debate on it. I'm probably even more of an "armchair" economist than you are : )

I can at least tell you that libertarians/hardline capitalists aren't this way because they want the undesirables to remain poor. They point out basically the two things I listed above. 1. They don't think it CAN be done. Theory tells us that an economy can never be managed and work. 2. When we do try to manage the economy, it isn't just that we fail, it's that the measures taken almost uniformly benefit the few at the expense of the many. Hence, their goal is the same as the humanist socialists - the maximum freedom of each individual human being. The two simply disagree on means. From what I can tell, the libertarians are right.

Last edited by LesserAnimal; 01-03-2009 at 02:46 PM..
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:42 PM   #27
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since 1933, there have been no effective restrictions on the issue of these currencies by the various nation-states. In effect, each nation-state, since 1933, and especially since the end of all gold redemption in 1971, has had the unlimited right and power to create paper currency which will be legal tender in its own geographic area. It is my contention that if any person or organization ever obtains the monopoly right to create money, that person or organization will tend to use this right to the hilt. The reason is simple: Anyone or any group empowered to manufacture money virtually out of thin air will tend to exercise that right, and with considerable enthusiasm. For the power to create money is a heady and profitable privilege indeed.
Ok, so any restriction on the issuance of currency is a good thing. My question remains (I haven't finished reading the article, I may be chiming in to soon), what's stopping any single entity/individual from owning the majority of the gold, and even hoarding it?
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:46 PM   #28
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He plans on taking out the bowling alley and putting in a nice basketball court in the White House. There's change!
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:09 PM   #29
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what's stopping any single entity/individual from owning the majority of the gold, and even hoarding it?
Bah, for some reason I failed to realize that this will always happen with any currency, no matter what form. As long as there is money to grant wealth, there will be wealthy and poor.

After reading that article, the gold standard is a very valid solution to the fractional reserve system. But, the problem remains; the monetary system (scarcity and the profit model) will always produce corruption. "Abundance, efficiency and sustainability [will never come about, as they] are enemies of profit."
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:17 PM   #30
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After reading that article, the gold standard is a very valid solution to the fractional reserve system. But, the problem remains; the monetary system (scarcity and the profit model) will always produce corruption.
Which is one of the biggest reasons government can't get involved - government is simply used to enforce that corruption. If we strip these elites of their main weapon, gov. enforcement, their power over others decreases dramatically.

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"Abundance, efficiency and sustainability [will never come about, as they] are enemies of profit."
I don't know about this. Business must always meet public demand. There is an increasing demand for sustainability, for example.

From what I understand, capitalism is really the embodiment of efficiency and abundance. I'm confused.

As an aside, have you ever read about participatory economics? It seems like something you may be interested in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_economics
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