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Old 11-21-2014, 08:49 AM   #364
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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Re: The (new) Fail/Win Thread

Originally Posted by Tomes of Deceit View Post
"Feminism" is maybe the wrong term at this point; we call it that but I think the movement also helps men who are in fields like nursing or secretary work. I think there are gender role issues for men as well, for example teen males may have emotional problems because they can't live up to sexual or physical expectations or aren't comfortable with their emotions. But it's often "feminists" who care about these things, more than the supposed MRA's.
Feminism is the correct term and the discussions about the semantics surrounding the word are ridiculous. Feminism is called that since it has its roots in the movement that demanded basic human rights for women but has long since then (as you imply towards the end of your post) taken to include the idea that the gender roles imposed upon men is harmful to society as well.

Originally Posted by _Hez_ View Post
The examples are analogies to his examples. If mine don't make sense, then his don't make sense. Exclaiming "...but sexism" and making an appeal to tradition isn't a justification.

Also, historically, men use sex against everyone, regardless of gender. It's a classic power play that we can still see remnants of today (prisons). Are you saying the t-shirt invokes this history? Are you saying that it invokes the unfortunate fact that most of this power play was likely heterosexual in nature and is meant to rub it in womens faces "Ha-ha!"? What exactly are you saying?

Let me raise your consciousness for a second:
  • Strippers exist.
  • Sexy women exist.
  • Sexy women with guns exist.
  • Sexy lingerie exists, it's no longer taboo to dress sexy.

In these examples, it's not necessarily the case that they're being oppressed by virtue of sex being used. Sex can be the end result, not just a means to something malicious.
How do you reconcile your view of the world with the reality of this world, where woman are now confident enough to flaunt their sexyness independently? Do you think they are doing a disservice to feminism? If the shirt in question is justified in making people upset, should swimsuit models make people upset? Should they cover up? Are fully covered muslim women bastions of modern day feminsism?
I think you misunderstand what I mean when I say that men have used women's sexuality against them. I mean that there's always existed a sort of double bind where women's sexuality is expected to be readily available for men but at the same time kept at bay. For example today women are expected to balance some sort of ever changing razor thin line between "sexy" and "classy" to avoid being labeled a slut or a prude. This is upheld by, among other things, a constant barrage of sexual portrayals of women and social commentaries about their bodies. There is no equivalent historical or current social phenomena when it comes to men and therefore the parallel seems a bit strained to say the least. Kind of like arguing that blackface should be okay since no white person would be offended by someone wearing "whiteface".

If you read my first post I explicitly talk about how sexual objectification in itself is not something negative which I think is something that is unfortunately heavily implied in these kinds of debates. However, everything we do exists in a historical and societal context. This means that even though one can see for example Nicki Minaj's Anaconda as a clever expression of self-objectification or an independent assertion of sexuality it can also be seen as a cultural phenomena that promotes the idea of women and their sexuality as a commodity, superficiality as a necessary female trait and women's looks as a central point of self-worth. What I'm saying is that this shirt, which I can't believe I'm now debating, can be seen in a similar way.

This isn't a simple issue nor have I claimed that it is but if the idea is that we should only take on explanatory models based on their lack of complexity then we'd probably live in the third reich or something by now.
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