Recording Hardware

[Brogen]

So I'm looking at buying some recording hardware sometime soon. I've been researching for a while, and I've come across some stuff I like...podxt looks decent and the fact that bulb uses one and gets that kind of tone is a big plus. There are others but I think that's what I'd go with. However, I'd just like to ask you guys what you use or recommend.

[F0RBIDDEN]

I would personally recommend a Pod 2.0 or V-Amp 2 over the Pod XT... There are good tones to be had with the Pod XT, but you have to do a LOT of tweaking, and I've personally never heard a good Pod XT sound that wasn't edited with tons of post processing in different software to make it sound good... The V-Amp 2 is super cheap and sounds great on it's own, and there's not a whole lot to tweak. Pod 2.0 is the same deal, but I think the high gain sounds in the V-Amp are better. The Pod 2.0 excels at every other tone though vs. the V-Amp. I've owned a Pod XT, a Pod 2.0 and a V-Amp 2 and the V-Amp is the only one I kept.

[Disembodiment]

Are the tones you can get out of the PODs and V-amps comparable? i.e. if i want to replicate a tone i'v heard from the POD would it be possible to recreate it on the V-amp.

do they have different sound characteristics?

[F0RBIDDEN]

Are the tones you can get out of the PODs and V-amps comparable? i.e. if i want to replicate a tone i'v heard from the POD would it be possible to recreate it on the V-amp.

do they have different sound characteristics?

It won't be exactly the same but you can definitely get in the same ballpark...

[Disembodiment]

Ok cheers dude. I've been weighing up the pros and cons of each unit for a while and its likely i'll be getting the V-amp Pro, especially as its about 1/3 the price of the POD Pro. I've also noticed in a lot of other threads you've said its easier to get a decent tone without hours of fiddling from the V-amp = big win.

[Brogen]

I would personally recommend a Pod 2.0 or V-Amp 2 over the Pod XT... There are good tones to be had with the Pod XT, but you have to do a LOT of tweaking, and I've personally never heard a good Pod XT sound that wasn't edited with tons of post processing in different software to make it sound good... The V-Amp 2 is super cheap and sounds great on it's own, and there's not a whole lot to tweak. Pod 2.0 is the same deal, but I think the high gain sounds in the V-Amp are better. The Pod 2.0 excels at every other tone though vs. the V-Amp. I've owned a Pod XT, a Pod 2.0 and a V-Amp 2 and the V-Amp is the only one I kept.

hmmm im looking at the v-amp 2 and it only seems to get good reviews. Thanks for telling me about those two options, I really appreciate it.

edit: what about software? does it require its own software or will it work with garageband/logic/etc?

[Ouroboros]

I personally think getting a good interface is a better idea, and just using the GuitarRig or Amplitude plug-in's in Logic or Cubase. The V-Amp's tone library is great, but the A/D converters Behringer uses are garbage. Expect to make latency adjustments, and have the occasional jitter become introduced into the signal. Basically, don't expect to get professional sound from the thing. However, it's really affordable.

[Disembodiment]

Good job i'm not a professional then! :biggrin:
Right now i just want something decent and versatile enough for the stage/basic home recording and at that price it cant be beat. If Sotelo used one (maybe still does?) and found it to be a decent piece of gear i'm reassured its gona do the job for my needs!

[F0RBIDDEN]

I've never had latency issues with my V-Amp, you'll have more latency issues with any sort of amp simulator plugin than you will with hardware... And while I'm sure the AD/DA conversion is shit in the Behringer, I've only ever heard the sound that comes out of it and it sounds great to me. I've never gotten a tone I've liked by using amp sim plugins and my Focusrite preamps...

[ChAAPY]

I've never had latency issues with my V-Amp, you'll have more latency issues with any sort of amp simulator plugin than you will with hardware...

bingo. I've never had any latency issues with my V-Amp either. it all comes from having some 20+ tracks and 6 different virtual instruments going on at the same time, haha.

speaking of that, anyone know what would I need to do solve that problem? obviously I need a better soundcard, but what should I be looking for regarding latency?

[Ouroboros]

The benefit of software amp simulation is having the option of controlling the latency, which is related to the power of your computer. Whereas in the Behringer, you are completely limited to the hardware processing within the V-Amp. In most cases, that is completely fine, but I doubt you will come across any engineer or musician who would use a V-Amp to make a professional recording.

My experience with the latency and the V-Amp, is having it being apart of a large signal chain at my school, which is the likely scenario in any recording studio. That is why I recommended just avoiding it all together, but I still use the V-Amp at home, for practicing and recording a practice log and song ideas.

ChAAPY, try a simple RAM upgrade, and if it's at least another 512MB, you will notice a difference. Even a good soundcard with an independent DSP will still use the RAM to store information it requires to use, so I would say a RAM upgrade is necessary.

[ChAAPY]

damn. I've got 2GB right now and a shit load of free memory. might as well get another gig.

[stabwound]

damn. I've got 2GB right now and a shit load of free memory. might as well get another gig.

Get a Mac then. :emot-LOL:

It does sound like you need more RAM though.

[ChAAPY]

Get a Mac then. :emot-LOL:

It does sound like you need more RAM though.

I am using a Mac.

[stabwound]

I am using a Mac.

Oh damn. Is it a PPC or intel? 2 gigs of RAM is fine for all the stuff I do on my mac. I use a G4 with 2 gigs of ram (and a macbook) but I've never had a latency issue with either. On the other hand, I've never needed 20 tracks with 6 different virtual instruments at once.

[ChAAPY]

Oh damn. Is it a PPC or intel? 2 gigs of RAM is fine for all the stuff I do on my mac. I use a G4 with 2 gigs of ram (and a macbook) but I've never had a latency issue with either. On the other hand, I've never needed 20 tracks with 6 different virtual instruments at once.

Processor: 2.16 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo.
Memory: 2 GB 667 MHz DDR2 SDRAM

but yeah, I'm pretty sure it's because I have over 30 tracks and multiple VST instruments going on with a bunch of plug-ins sometimes. the last song I did looked fucking insane in Cubase. I really need to minimize my tracks per song, haha.

[Ouroboros]

It's likely an issue within Cubase, then.

In Logic Pro 8, I can have an insane amount of plug-in's running, with RAX instruments, and over 25 tracks, without any latency during playback. However, when I am doing an overdub or recording a new track with all that other shit, I do get latency issues, so I just change the buffer to something really low (256), and it completely helps. Then, before playback, I push it back up to 1024. Should help. I only have 2GB ram, with a slightly faster processor. So, I assume it's the limitation of Cubase, or your buffer setting.

[Ouroboros]

I should also note, that even with a low buffer and a good computer, Pro Tools has horrible limitations when it comes to RTAS plug-in's and VSTi's. But Pro Tools is a PoS in a lot of ways, so I wouldn't expect Cubase to be like that.

[Ouroboros]

Yeah, ChAAPY, that's definitely your issue.

Low buffer (256 samples, or as low as possible before clicks appear) while recording to eliminate latency. High buffer (1024 samples or higher) during playback.

Cubase is not to blame, as I just tried this out.

[ChAAPY]

I already did that as well. Still getting a lot of slag with all the tracks and VST instruments. It wasn't as much, but it was still there. It has to be the soundcard right? haha.

[ten_second_infinity]

Just buy a new sound card.

[ChAAPY]

I just bought this one though, haha. I'll upgrade one day because there are ways around it right now. I'd rather have new pick ups in my guitar first.

[Ouroboros]

How low was your buffer?

If it doesn't present any issues, like sudden distortion, slow playback, or clicks and hisses, try putting the buffer to 128 or 64.

[ChAAPY]

How low was your buffer?

If it doesn't present any issues, like sudden distortion, slow playback, or clicks and hisses, try putting the buffer to 128 or 64.

haha, I told you I already did all that stuff. I have way too many plug-ins and tracks going on so I was just wondering what I need to look for in a new soundcard. better AD/DA converters right? if so, any recommendations?

[Ouroboros]

I was asking because you may have just put it at 256, but whatever.

Are you wanting just a PCI soundcard, or are you looking for an interface?

[ChAAPY]

interface.

[Ouroboros]

http://www.artproaudio.com/products.asp?id=130&cat=1&type=79

I own this, and I recommend it. It's very affordable. The pres aren't transparent, as they have tubes in their circuits, but they colour the sound in a very nice way. I use it as my sole interface for now, but I am going to pick up a MOTU 828MKII and use it as my primary interface, with the Tubefire8 daisy-chained into it. The only con, is the level metering is very limited, giving only four LEDs per channel, so you don't get very accurate gain control.

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/8pre/

MOTU is an amazing company, and everything I have used by them has been solid. I haven't used this personally, so I know nothing of the quality of the preamps, but the converters and clocking are excellent, especially for the price.

http://www.presonus.com/products/Detail.aspx?ProductId=3

Presonus make really good preamps, I don't know about the other aspects of this interface such as the conversion or whatnot, but this is double the price of the Tubefire8, so likely it has higher quality circuitry all around.

However, I would recommend getting one of the latter, they focus mostly on conversion, since they have fewer preamps. Also, you can build a collection of many different types of pres, both analog and digital, and chain them into one of these:

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/ultralite/

Affordable, my teacher uses four of these for his entire studio and has a lot of solid recordings under his belt. He highly recommends it.

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/828/

This is in my future, the difference between it and the Ultralite is the number of I/O's available. It has ADAT Lightpipe connectivity, along with balanced analog and firewire. It is only $150-$200 more than the Ultralite.

http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_fireface_400.php

Top of the line clocking, but other than that, I know nothing about the preamps, or the conversion.

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/ensemble.php

Fucking pricy, but they have top-of-the-line converters and preamps. Pro equipment right there.

Or, you can get any interface, no matter how shitty, and chain it up to this baby:

http://www.lynxstudio.com/aurora/index.html

It'll completely override any digital conversion in your signal chain, and you will never have to worry about that issue ever again. But...$2700 for 16 channels of conversion. Pricy, but from what I hear, worth every penny.

Keep in mind, I am recommending you these simply because I have heard good things about them, or aspects of them (like the RME's clocking). But, do your own research, and hopefully you find something that works for your needs.

Cheers dude!

[ChAAPY]

goddamn dude. THANK YOU!

I'm currently using this btw - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Firewire410

I need to get me zero latency interface so thanks for those recommendations. cheers!

[Ouroboros]

No problem man, I'm a complete audio nerd, so that was pretty fun.

[Brogen]

wow thanks for all the help. much appreciated. oh and you live in toronto? sweet.

[stabwound]

goddamn dude. THANK YOU!

I'm currently using this btw - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Firewire410

I need to get me zero latency interface so thanks for those recommendations. cheers!


haha, I have one of those too, and a digi003.

[indented_head]

My Dad has one of these (http://www.presonus.com/products/Detail.aspx?ProductId=7), and although it's only 4 (2 proper) channels, has pretty decent sound quality and I tested it out with Guitar Rig 2 for a few days without noticing any latency issues, it's pretty cheap if you are only looking for a small solution...

[F0RBIDDEN]

I would avoid MOTU.. The stuff looks good on paper but lately I have been hearing a lot of people complaining about the reliability.

Other good interfaces to look at are the Focusrite Saffire Pro although I returned mine due to a lack of pads on the preamps, the new M-Audio Profire 2626 which looks sweet, the Mackie Onyx 1200F (ordered one, stoked to get a chance to use it soon...) and the Fireface 800...

The RME Fireface stuff has EXCELLENT A/D D/A conversion, they use AKM converters which are extremely well regarded. That new Mackie Onyx unit also uses the same converters so I'm pumped for that. The RME preamps are good, but not great, the selling point of those units is the conversion and the I/O options. The Mackie Onyx preamps are very well regarded and seem to be the best you can get in the price range, and with 12 preamps on that sucker you should be alright for a while.

I was debating between the M-Audio and the Mackie for a bit considering the M-Audio is only like $700 and has all the features I was looking for, but the Mackie has an additional 4 pre's and far superior converters, plus an extra 2 headphone outputs and all the pre's are better quality so I decided to drop the $1600 for one of those.

If you don't need ADAT, I would consider looking at the Onyx 400F as well.

My plan is to use this Onyx 1200F until the fall or winter and then add an API 3124+ preamp, a Vintech 473 and a Lynx Aurora 8 w/the ADAT option to allow me to use the new preamps through the Onyx. Was also considering maybe the 2 channel version of the Vintech pre and picking up a Great River MP2NV, and I'm also still sort of debating between the Aurora 8 and an Apogee Rosetta 800 for the A/D...

[F0RBIDDEN]

One thing I especially don't like about that MOTU 8pre is that it only has 2 analog outs, VERY limiting if using it as your main interface, would still be useful if you are just using the preamps and running them into a separate interface via ADAT though...

Another Presonus one to check out is the Firestudio, although most people seem to head towards the Saffire Pro for that price given the superior A/D of the Focusrite stuff plus the additional headphone out. Like I said before though, the Saffire Pro preamps have a gain range of +13 to +60 which makes it a huge pain in the ass if your source is loud. All of my tom mics, my snare and overheads were all peaking at above 0db even with the mic gain at 0. Dumb.

[Ouroboros]

I think your Sapphire may have been set to +10dBv instead of -4dBv, which would explain why your levels were so hot coming in. Even with the gain range being +13 to +60, on a standard -4dBv connection with that range, drums wouldn't clip with the gain set to 0.

Anyway, the school I'm at has had a MOTU 2408MK for 6 years, and it is still being used as the main interface and the master clock in their primary studio. I haven't ever used a MOTU with preamps, but their sole interfaces like the 2408 seem up to any hype MOTU has been credited for. Their newer firewire interfaces like the 828MKII and the MK3 have a lot of connectivity, that's what makes them stand out to me. Especially with the new MK3, it offers sixteen channels of ADAT I/O's, stereo S/PDIF, two firewire ports and 8 analog inputs. The MK3 also has digital metering on the front of the interface for signal coming into its analog inputs, which shows the gain level of the external source to the exact dB. That's pretty sweet. But, I will look into other interfaces and check out some of the reliability issues people have been having with MOTU to judge if it's worth the investment.

Oh, and I have heard nothing but good things about both the Apogee and Lynx converters, so I guess it should come down to what is more affordable. Another idea is to check out which studios use Apogee and which use Lynx, then judge by their recent recordings.

[F0RBIDDEN]

I think your Sapphire may have been set to +10dBv instead of -4dBv, which would explain why your levels were so hot coming in. Even with the gain range being +13 to +60, on a standard -4dBv connection with that range, drums wouldn't clip with the gain set to 0.

I couldn't find any way of switching between +10 or -4 on the Sapphire... The line inputs on the front had a lower gain range and still used the preamps so I probably could have done that but it seems sketchy....


Anyway, the school I'm at has had a MOTU 2408MK for 6 years, and it is still being used as the main interface and the master clock in their primary studio. I haven't ever used a MOTU with preamps, but their sole interfaces like the 2408 seem up to any hype MOTU has been credited for. Their newer firewire interfaces like the 828MKII and the MK3 have a lot of connectivity, that's what makes them stand out to me. Especially with the new MK3, it offers sixteen channels of ADAT I/O's, stereo S/PDIF, two firewire ports and 8 analog inputs. The MK3 also has digital metering on the front of the interface for signal coming into its analog inputs, which shows the gain level of the external source to the exact dB. That's pretty sweet. But, I will look into other interfaces and check out some of the reliability issues people have been having with MOTU to judge if it's worth the investment.


Those connectivity options you mention on the MK3 are pretty much the standard connectivity options for any Firewire audio interface in the $600~ range... The Firestudio, Saffire Pro, and Profire 2626 all have the same connectivity options but with 8 preamps vs. the 2 on the MOTU. MOTU is definitely good stuff though, I've just been hearing reliability issues recently with the 828MKII stuff...

[Ouroboros]

I've been digging around the MOTU support forums and there are some scary posts up there. Studios have been down for days to weeks when using MOTU's as their primary interface. It seems their gear tends to quit after the warranty, which is basically how it goes with most electronics these days. But, MOTU seems to have horrible technical support with in-warranty gear, and their repair options are ridiculously overpriced, or in the majority of cases, non-existent.

I have been looking at the M-Audio ProFire 2626, it's more affordable, has the same amount of analog and digital connections, and it has 8 Octane based preamps, although I have found that don't use the exact same circuits as their stand-alone Octane device.

But, I'm curious to find out if you can use the Lynx Aurora's with their Firewire LSlot expansion as firewire interfaces. Since I will be getting one eventually, it would be silly to drop half the cost of one on another interface just to abandon it later. Even though Firestudio and the Profire have their own preamps, I would instead just invest in an Octane and a 2-channel Presonus preamp and connect it to the Aurora.

Anyway, I've been compiling a list of some nice standalone analog and digital preamps. I recommend you check some of them out, even though a lot are out of most peoples budget, including mine.

SSL XLogic Alpha VHD 4 Channel

FMR RNP 8380 2 Channel - This is actually quite affordable for the quality of preamp. You can find them on eBay for under $400.

ART MPA Gold 2 Channel - Will likely sell off my Tubefire when I get another interface/Aurora, and eventually buy this. I love the sound of their tube preamps, but the Tubefire uses Starved Plate Voltage, whereas their MPA pres use proper High Plate Voltage for the 12AX7 tubes. No wonder, since this 2 channel rack is over half the price of the Tubefire 8.

True Systems Precision 2 Channel

M-Audio Octane 8 Channel - This is a definite buy in my future. Clean and very transparent, with ADAT output and from what I have read, good conversion and clocking out of the box. I will likely use these for drums, unless I am ever able to afford the XLogic Alpha VHD, then overheads, kick drum and snare are going into that baby.